A thought on attribute dependence

[Itsuki Kita]

Before I say anything about this, I do love the idea of attribute changes and abilities surrounding the idea to be a great strategy. 

The reason I am bringing this in to effect is because of this brawl here. Although, I agree that it was a very well thought out strategy by my opponent and I should have thought ahead before making all my cards Ventus and relying on my prevention card. However, I can't help but feel like making either 1 negate card with all attributes or a bunch of negate cards that list two attributes. Because of this, I just think it is something long winded to achieve one simple goal. 

As I have said above, I do like the thought of attribute dependency meaning something in the game. But, I can't help but feel the only way around this is by spending more in money before you can justify brawling another person with abilities like this. 

The only suggestion that I wish to put forward is have some abilities that are not attribute dependant. Such as ability negation and gate card negation. In doing this, an attribute change will still force a player to think of a way around the change or sacrifice a negation count.

I know that Grimm has brought up negation needs some re-balancing and i may just be jumping the gun here. If this is the case I do apologies. 

[Blaze Hayes]

May I bring up some ways you may handle attribute relliance already.

1) Attribute Change. A Bakugan can have the attribute change ability allowing them to change to other attributes than their default or change back to it. You can change how the ability works for your Bakugan; say they can either go from default to any, any to default, but not any to any.

2) Effect Prevention/Prevent X. Green and Red that allows you to prevent an effect from being used or a card type.

3) * Counts. Another green effect. You can gain these counts and name them whatever you wish. These counts stay even after the card is negated and can be used in several ways. For example, I use Attribute Counts with my Admin Bakupack and can use those counts to disable certain attributes. Cards with those disabled attributes will no longer work; Bakugan of those attributes, of course, stay that attribute.

4) Use From inventory. Another Green effect. You can use it to use an effect from another card. Can be useful if you need an effect from another card but cannot play that card.

5) Counter Stop. Red effect. No one can play counters unless they are special or fusion cards.

6) Another Bakugan, a very simple way if you get them out. 

7) Copper Gates. They can hold effects in them, and if a gate is simple enough, we may allow it to be all attributes.


As you can see there are a good few ways to handle attribute relliance without needing to use one of your two negates. 

[Itsuki Kita]

I understand what you are saying, which is why I really like the rule in general. The effect of changing ones attribute is not an issue for me, it's that I have to make multiple cards of different attributes to make sure any attribute I am changed to, I can rectify the issue. 

For example, My Bakugan is changed to Haos, and if I have none of the solutions above with the Haos attribute, essentially, I have lost. So the solution I have to make myself if make sure I have a copy of the card for every attribute. 

Now I understand that I can just make the cards to get around it and I will no longer have the issue. But I am only speaking from the new player perspective exclusively. It is going to cost money on the site before I can ensure a way around this for every possible attribute change. From what I have learnt so far, two or three attributes per card seem to be allowed. 

I will also point out it is very easy to earn money on the site to make these cards, so I understand how that can make this seem like even less of a problem. 

The Bakugan attribute change is not something I really thought of to be honest. You have given me plenty to think about strategy wise. 

This is just a minor thing and I may very well be completely wrong in my thought process. 

[Blaze Hayes]

The main thing when it comes to Attributes is not to have every attribute. That stops being fun for both parties in a brawl. In fact, Attribute Reliance was worse before the change, when your attribute got changed, the cards of your previous attribute that you played stopped working; In a sense, attribute change could be used to counter/negate a lot of cards back then. That is why a change was made so that when your attribute is changed, your previous cards, if not already negated, stay active.


Attribute Reliance is not say who can use every attribute or who has the most counters for any attribute. It is more about understanding what your bakupack relies on to work well and what can you do to control the situation if things go south.

Attribute Reliance does not stay long if one is smart enough and thinks outside the box. If Attribute Reliance stays a problem for a person for over a month, it likely means they aren't ready for the tests to become a Pro Brawler like Vail is right now. Attribute Reliance is just one factor one needs to think about with thier Bakupack, there are at least 2 more factors. 

[Itsuki Kita]

That does give me some understanding. It shows that progression in a players thought through brawling is what the site is aiming for, which is something I really do like.

[Blaze Hayes]

Correct. You could have 30 cards in your Bakupack, but if you cannot apply those cards to other situations correctly, no number of extra cards will help you. Meanwhile, a person that can apply their cards well, even if a bit limited, can work with even Bakupacks of less than 10 cards.

[Grimm(Admin)]

Hi Itsuki. My little but in here. While cost is one thing. Mitigated by brawling which teaches you how to expand your personal strategy. (Mainly because if you lose. You can still buy the effects you need to think of the counter.) Or replicate others ideas into your own. I want to explain some thoughts on why I didn't just overhaul an entire system after two years. (Yes two.)

Beside balancing and preventing all attribute cards outside of initial creation from the sights birth when us three admins were just testing things ourselves. Yeah that's nail on the head. To open up more possible strategies. A good brawler wont be able to plan for every event, they can just mitigate it. Since Counters and Negates will be linked to the same limit here after the new counter and negate list is made. (Since my old one vanished into the ether.) Attribute change wont be one of those. I can see arguments for it being changed on what color of card it can be on though. That said how I personally handle counters and negates effects the who sight. By even adding one more to the limit of negate and counter. I could effectively create two issues that even Attribute change originally had. Endless negation loops. If you really want a look into how bad it got. Vail Versus a Banned Player that I personally hope to never see again. Is a great example. Even after being warned by not 1. BUT 2 admins in not doing the thing he did. We invoked a be reasonable rule.

Negation loops are bad for brawls and the site. A: boring, B: artificial extensions to brawls. C: Can make things very much one sided. These are three reasons why I need to admit when I fuck up. Its also why other effects that at face value shouldn't be a problem. Become Problems.

As for the money thing. We had an issue for a while with a plugin that actually made people earn less money than the original settings. Money is supposed to be not an issue. Merely interacting in Roleplays or games, or just general forum discussion outside of the shout box is supposed to hand out cash. Brawling often of course hands out the most money. Losing a brawl gives out free card slots. With the card slot being better for higher for lower ranking players against higher ranking players. Same with money if you do win. Technically. To save the most money. Brawling and losing to Vail (Me Aka when I don't want to be an admin.) Gets you at your current position free red slots.

I don't know if this was your intent. But you got insight on what at least I am thinking about when handling things. I am rather chaotic amongst us admins. I tend to react the fastest when the game rules are broken. Especially when Be Reasonable is a rule. Yeah it effects battles and is a measure against higher rank players, or card spammers. It was the original anti spam negate rule. Until someone broke so bad I had to put in a limit. Unless someone takes attribute change and BREAKS IT again. I wont know till then. And wont have ideas till then.

Do give more opinions though. I would rather in the end be sorrily wrong. Then "Gosh Grimm was right now. Time to be punished." Like I don't want to be know as the guy with the trigger finger. I want to be known as the guy who will strike down the people who deserve it. . . Q-Q I try.